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Location: Blogs Ted's Blog |
 | | Posted by: Ted Post | 12/13/2006 8:15 AM | This is probably my first real blog entry, something of value, that I probably know more about than most people. First some background: I've been developing code since 1980 and started using Emacs as an editor early on. Even in my first position, working in Fortran 77 on DEC Vaxes I was editing with emacs. Of course at that time there was no such thing as an IDE. In the mid 1980s I continued to work with Vaxes and added IBM mainframes to the list, still working with Fortran 77 and of course Emacs. In the mid to late 1980s I moved over to workstation platforms as they became available (Apollo, Sun) and moved to C. Again, the platforms were new and didn't offer any IDEs. When I started working with Microsoft products in the early 1990s, writing in C and then C++ IDEs started to show up but were so poor there was no reason anyone would use them. When Visual C++ finally came out, along with MFC and all the underlying technologies for creating GUIs (dialogs, toolbars, menus, etc) I had already been doing that for several years without an IDE, using Emacs to directly edit the resource files and create what was necessary. So I continued using Emacs for all creation of the software. I did use Visual C++, and Visual Studio, but only for project managment and debugging. In 2000 I moved into a company that was a pure Java shop. I tried to use NetBeans as an IDE for a while but it was so slow and cumbersome I couldn't complete anything in a reasonable amount of time. Of course we used ANT to build our projects and NetBeans didn't really offer much for me either. So Emacs it was again, for six more years. Even as Eclipse came out and gained a foothold I refused to switch. Saying things like I remember more about the classes I'm using if I'm forced to look them up in the javadocs and type the full name all the time. At one point (before Eclipse) I even worked out how to use Emacs as a debugger for Java (J2EE based code). Now while I was doing all this Java based coding I did manage to keep up with some of my Microsoft based projects. However, I didn't implement anything new and therefore I never jumped to .NET. Well that day is here. Current Situation: After six years of not learning anything new in the Microsoft world and .NET having come into the picture and being in production on its 3rd revision I'm back and trying to learn and implement .NET projects (ASP.NET, Windows Forms, C#). Of course I have Visual Studio and MSDN (kept my subscriptions active all these years) to help me and I also have trusty Emacs by my side to allow me to edit with the keystrokes and control keys I am used to. Status: Well it isn't working out so well this time around. .NET simply has too many pieces and parts to keep track of. Too many separate files (*.cs, *.Designer.cs, *.resx). Also the new GUI (windows forms) editing is considerably better than it used to be, drop a control onto a form and it helps position it correctly (horizontal and vertical alignment). All the properties are displayed and easily changable. Of course I could edit the .resx files directly, they are after all just XML files. But there are a lot of new properties and Visual Studio makes it pretty easy to change them directly. The refactoring in VS also is very nice, change it in the IDE and it renames the files, changes references, etc. (yeah I know, Eclipse does that with Java). And a real nice addition (I saw this documented years ago but never tried it) is the emacs style for the Visual Studio editor. Ok, it is lame Emacs, very slow (can't keep up with my control keys), but at least allows me to transition without a complete brain re-training period. Now of course you need multiple monitors to really do this effectively and I'm struggling since my 2nd monitor died a week ago. But I haven't switched back to Emacs yet. Conclusion: Emacs has played a big part of my life, it has been my editing pal for something like 25 years. I will never completely give it up (editing binary data is still sometimes necessary) but for now I won't be using it as my primary editor while working on .NET projects. | | | Permalink | Trackback |
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Re: Emacs vs IDEs, Visual Studio Specifically | By Robert on 12/21/2007 10:41 AM | | but.. sounds like it's not VS.net is Good, but that the project design is too cumbersome to manage by emacs, so you HAVE to use VS.net? Or am I reading with too much bias |
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Re: Emacs vs IDEs, Visual Studio Specifically | By Ted.Post on 12/21/2007 10:54 AM | In some respects you are correct, things have just gotten too complicated to deal with them without an IDE. Well almost, I would say that is true for a beginner to intermediate level, but as one gets more and more used to all of this it could be done with emacs on the side, editing the files directly.
I personally haven't switched back, although find that I curse the slowness of the emacs emulation within VS 2005 quite often. Perhaps VS 2008 will be better!
Emacs will always be there for editing text files and the like. But for complex situations IDEs now seem good enough to have their place.
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Happy and Healthly New Year | By Bill Post on 12/22/2007 11:26 PM | Hi Ted How are you doing. I am Al and Sylvia Post son Billy. your second cousin. I visited with you back in 1973 with my friend Wayne.Hope your family is doing well. Have a Happy and Healthy New Year Billy |
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Re: Emacs vs IDEs, Visual Studio Specifically | By photo recovery on 8/7/2010 8:16 AM | Really well written and explained about .net technology!
Regards photo recovery http://www.datadoctor.biz |
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Re: Emacs vs IDEs, Visual Studio Specifically | By Duncan Bayne on 2/8/2011 5:16 PM | I agree that Visual Studio is necessary for serious work in .NET. But I don't think that's a point in Visual Studio's favour.
Rather, the .NET platform is sufficiently broken from a developer's perspective that it requires a massive IDE to manage the separate tools, code formats (CS, XAML, RESX, ...), and above all many code generators to handle boilerplate code that could be eliminated with a decent macro system.
Even after all that, a serious developer will add ReSharper or CodeRush to the mix.
The .NET platform is also outstripping Visual Studio. E.g., LINQ is a great feature, but you can't use it from the interactive window in Visual Studio. See:
https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/472999/ability-to-evaluate-lambda-expressions-in-immediate-window
... for details. |
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Re: Emacs vs IDEs, Visual Studio Specifically | By zxul767 on 11/15/2011 11:31 PM | I started using emacs when I went to college more than 7 seven years ago. During a long time, I only used out-of-the-box emacs, so even though I knew it was great text editor, I didn't fully realize its true potential. Recently, however, I have started digging deeper (i.e. reading tutorials, reading the docs, watching screencasts, learning Elisp, etc.), and I finally see its true power, and how, if you're willing to spend some time learning Elisp and searching for appropriate packages, you can turn it into a full-blown IDE. I am currently on a journey to achieve such a thing (at least for the things I use the most while developing, "refactoring" being one of them). It'd be great, of course, if it shipped with all those useful packages out of the box (to make it more attractive to new users who may shy away from that learning curve)
By the way, in a previous job I had I did use VS 2008, and there were good things about it. It was reasonably fast, and did most of things I wanted just fine. I did like the fact that they added basic emacs key binding emulation, but then it was hard to find documentation for functions or commands to do more advanced things. Of course it was possible to write plug-ins to do advanced things (I had a co-worker who wrote a plug-in to "clean up" code by re-indenting, and removing/sorting futile "using" statements, as well as functions, in the code), but I don't think they were definitely not that simple to write.
VS 2010, on the other hand, was a nightmare for me... I only used it for a brief period of time, and then reverted to VS 2008, not wanting to figure out why it was so slow and painful to use. Admittedly, I was using a beta version, but a friend of mine recently used the released version and was quite frustrated at the experience, too. I'd have to give it a try again to judge this impartially. |
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